|
Post by trout46 on Jul 5, 2010 19:42:58 GMT -5
Interesting, because I totally relate to the way fear has motivated so much of my behavior. My AA sponsor pushed me to "see" and understand the role that fear played in my life when I did my 4th step. My fears were all about losing something I had (and wanted to keep), or not getting something I thought I needed.
For me, identifying the childhood issues was motivated most by work in codependency and, more recently, LA. Why do I have such fears? That led me to my inner child, and all the unresolved pain and feelings of abandonment that define him.
I feel blessed that I'm getting to these issues. They have defined me (the real me), and organized so much of life and behavior, yet the majority of it wasn't in my conscious experience.
Great thread!
|
|
|
Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 5, 2010 23:30:45 GMT -5
Very interesting thread. Prim I realized that repressed feelings of hurt and anger were behind my phone call to my POA the other night. Jealousy wasn't activated with him but other stuff was triggered. I did have jealousy issues with prior husbands -- interestingly regarding their first wives. One of those husbands gave me reason to be concerned. The other one really didn't. I recognize a competitive side to my jealous feelings. I came from a family with seven children and believed my dad loved my older sister and not me. At one point she was his favorite and I felt rejected and cast aside. I was considered my moms favorite which triggered jealousy in my siblings. Still does and mom died seven years ago. Part of jealousy to me is a belief in the scarcity of love and the fear of not receiving it.
Kelleyboy I'm curious why you think jealousy is tied to an inflated ego. Maybe it is in some cases but I can't see it in my life. Could be a blindspot. I have seen me try to cover my insecurities in a way that looks like ego. Trout I definitely believe there is insecurity behind your ex-w jealousy and snooping. Sad that our issues color our perception of reality.
|
|
|
Post by primrose on Jul 6, 2010 2:49:20 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining that KB. I really have the same experience that jealousy is about control. For me my control (which is huge) is directly related to how controlled I was as a child. I need to control others just as much as my mother needed to control me as a child. Like you, I carried on that childhood programming. I learnt how to manipulate other people and get them to do what I wanted, so I did that as an adult. I also swung wildly the other way and allowed myself to be very controlled too.
I have a friend who is getting divorced and has children. She's in therapy at the moment learning how to help her children deal with their parents splitting up. It is so interesting for me to hear what her therapist tells her. Her therapist is showing her how she (my friend) is constantly controlling her children by closing down conversations, giving her children answers to questions rather than letting them open up to her. She's having to re-learn how to have conversations with her children. Listening to my friend has been really helpful for me, because I can see that if a woman (or man) is hyper controlling their children are turned into robots emotionally. A child may run around and laugh and play and do her homework and do what kids do, but with a parent who needs total control, that child is being moulded in every single simple little conversation. My mother had that done to her growing up and knew no better, so did it to me. And my friend (who in lots of ways is a wonderful mother) is seeing how she does it about her divorce. She is in so much pain she doesn't want to hear her children's pain, so she just shuts them up when they try and talk to her about their feelings. I find that all so fascinating, especially as my friend is learning new healthier ways to talk to her kids. I respect her a lot for doing that and looking at her behaviour. Hmmm, went a bit off tangent there, sorry! Am thinking a lot about mothers and control at the moment. P.
|
|
|
Post by knowlove on Jul 6, 2010 8:59:33 GMT -5
I love how this thread has evolved. Amazing how much we learn from each other and the many different aspects we can discuss related to our addiction. I have been jealous with POA's before no doubt. I believe this all stems from either 1)distrust or 2) insecurity. As far as the ego, I feel many people with big egos are usually very insecure but do not want to show this. I always felt I was pretty secure. Yep, found out I was quite the opposite! Surprise that an LA would be insecure eh? I find with myself, I am more concerned about how POA's felt about ME, not about anyone else in their life. As long as I felt they were into me and had their full attention, it was usually ok (unless there was good reason for distrust and sometimes there was). DY I can absolutely see why you had problems but you didn't know this in the beginning. We want to trust. We want to absolutely believe they want us and us alone. As for control. My dear Prim I know all about this. My mother is a classic control freak. tries to control everything right down to telling me what I should tell another person when I speak to them. I too having looked at myself these last few months have found that I want to control my POA's to act like I want them to act. To be there when I want, how I want. All for ME. I have read that our expectations are too high as we expect others to act just as we do and it is unrealistic. I am learning I cannot control anyone or anything except myself. I am trying to teach my H this as well. Telling myself this and trying to practice this has really helped me. I think that is why, even though I have been in contact with POA I feel differently. I have not heard from him in three days and amok with this. Earlier on I would have been pinging him to make sure he was still there. Now, even though I can feel my little girl tapping me, wanting me to contact I wont do it. The difference is I do not feel the overwhelming desire. I am ok with it. I am not obsessing nor bothered by this where months ago I'd be obsessing and going batty over whether to contact, would I be bothering him? Should I? Should I not? Should I go visit him at work instead to see his reaction? Oh yes. Obsessiveness overload would be in play right now. So, Wow! I feel like Ive not only learned so much about myself, but I am learning to A) feel more confident in myself B) not over react c) move on and look at other things in my life that are important and D) realize that this POA and affair was for something missing inside of me and I am *maybe* finally realizing it doesn't always NEED to be filled. Either way something is changing within me, something for the better and at least for today I am doing well. It seems like all of us are slowly learning so much about ourselves aren't we? Not only is this rewarding but interesting to see how our childhood framed our entire adult lives for who and what we are. I find the more secure we get, the more stronger we get, the more recovery we get, the better we feel, the more whole we feel. Like we are reaching the point where we are finally realizing what WE as people are all about and what our true needs are to take care of US.
|
|
|
Post by kelleyboy on Jul 7, 2010 15:57:49 GMT -5
I have been reading some of the big book lately, and I guess I am talking in terms of controlling life. Trying to "manage well" as the BB calls. If only I could manage well, life would be great. Starting to get that the "lives are unmanageable" part of the 1st step is really "the jokes on me" part. Something about this whole thing seems to be telling me, I was never able manage my life, and thinking I could was an illusion I used to feel comforted. This is a great thread. Can't blame you Prim for being Mom-centric right now
|
|
|
Post by knowlove on Jul 7, 2010 17:40:34 GMT -5
DY, Thanks for the thoughts. I was brought up with religion so have believed (most of the time) that God loves us not matter what. I have also come to find he does not give up on us easily. My personal view is He does everything He can to bring us to Him. He wants us to rely on Him. If we were perfect and never had any problems, why would we need Him? I believe HE knocks on our doors again and again and again, right up until death. I also believe (personally) there are many gray areas. I was taught something by a wonderful priest. He told me the greater the love, the greater the pain (of loss whether by death or one leaving another). It really does make sense. If you did not love with greatness you will not feel the great loss either. I am realizing I put an awful lot on my POA's (not that they were ever aware) because I too gauged my happiness and self worth on how they reacted to or treated me. It always looked outside myself for others to make me happy and it really isn't fair. I believe others actions can make us happy but we should learn not to rely on this but rely on what we do for ourselves. Just like we have to love ourselves first, right? Just by getting out more, doing more that I find fun and spending more time with H and my family is bringing me happiness. I am not looking to others to make me happy but finding it all on my own. It is liberating. I dont think by shifting to your HP that is cheating. I think that is an extremely healthy thing. Obviously I do not have all the answers because I wouldn't be here right now but I am happy I am here because I am learning every day and Ive met all of you wonderful people here and like you said DY, we are right now such a close knit group which I cherish very much. It is so nice to come here to share, learn about others, help others and know none of us are judging the other but giving support, tips, ideas and most of all friendship.
|
|
|
Post by sexlessw on Jul 8, 2010 15:50:26 GMT -5
Wow - lots going on - I have a question - more like an interjection.
Can we make another thread about Jealousy?
KnowLove - one of seven? Oh boy. I'm an only child - now that is a different way of being brought up. It's wonderful you are finding contentment with your DH and family. There is a life and people OUTSIDE of our addictions to POAs.
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Jul 8, 2010 22:44:42 GMT -5
Jealousy is the number one thing I am most afraid of when I think about getting into another relationship. I have a feeling it won't matter how healthy and normal and non-avoidant the man is, I will still turn into a crazy person if I see him chatting with, or smiling at, another woman. I know there's something seriously undone in my recovery about this, but I'm not exactly sure how to get at it.
When I think of past relationships (all the way back to high school) in every one of them I was a seriously jealously crazed person. I mean like Glenn-Close-Fatal-Attraction-jealous. Like I literally think I will DIE if my boyfriend hugs another woman. Or I will have to live, which is even worse because I will be TORMENTED day and night by thoughts of her and him hugging her. Doesn't she know he belongs to ME?!!
My stbx was obsessed with me for many years before he became avoidant, which is why the relationship felt like such a fabulous thing to me. For the first time ever I did not have to be jealous because he made everything about me, me, me. He lived and breathed for me. Everything was about him adoring ME. I practically wallowed in the deliciousness of being someone's one and only. But then, of course, eventually he turned back into his avoidant self and began withdrawing and then started to look for someone else to focus all that adoration on. Don't know if he's found her yet, but I'm sure he will. It's hard to resist.
I don't want his attention back on me because I really do see him clearly. For those needing a refresher, that would be: an alcoholic, avoidant, rage-filled, lying, cheating, SW. I don't want him and I'm not jealous of whoever he ends up with. She's signing up for a roller coaster ride through SW Hell. She needs my prayers, not my jealousy.
And yet... this hypothetical new guy I will meet someday. I fear I will be the same insane jealous person. I think I have the belief (or the need to believe) that when a man commits to me, he belongs to me. He is ALL MINE. I don't want anyone else anywhere near him. This is probably why I chose such a f*cked up avoidant. He didn't have any friends so I didn't have to worry about him spending time with anyone but me.
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Jul 8, 2010 22:48:36 GMT -5
And here's another thing. A friend of mine played a drunk dialing message from her POA today in which he cried and begged for her to let him come back. He misses her, can't live without her, etc., etc. (This is, of course, after her taking him back TWICE and each time he dumped her again within the month.)
I found myself thinking about my stbx and hoping for such a message someday. Not because I want him back, but because I want him to want me back. There's some part of me that still wants him to know he f*cked up and wants him to regret it for the rest of his life. I was picturing him as an 80 year old, all alone and miserable and still thinking about me and how he ruined his life the day he cheated on me.
It's not really that I want him to suffer. I just want him to know how stupid he was. I'm glad I'm not missing him, but it concerns me that he's on my mind at all. It doesn't seem like something a healthy person should want.
|
|
angel
New Member
Posts: 14
|
Post by angel on Jul 9, 2010 3:50:41 GMT -5
Dear Quinn,
I can relate to this: "Not because I want him back, but because I want him to want me back. There's some part of me that still wants him to know he f*cked up and wants him to regret it for the rest of his life."
This is my pattern too. I am feeling very down and despondent cos I am realising how distant I am from anyone I have been with. I am pining ofr my Q but in reality I want him to want me more than he currently is. I too feel a buzz of validation when he contacts me and I want him to WANT me so that i feel wanted.
I guess i am different. I want him to suffer too. I am sad and angry. I went to bed thinking about him last night and I was angry. I have been seeing couples walking hand in hand and sitting in each other's arms and I feel lonely and envious and I start to get a rise in anger where I want to hurt him.
In reality he is in as much pain as I am so it doesn't make sense really.
Take what you want and leave the rest. Angel
|
|
|
Post by primrose on Jul 9, 2010 3:56:22 GMT -5
Great posts here! Quinn, I really relate to you wanting your POA to know he made a mistake. When I went NC with my parents I was obsessed with them seeing my side of things. I wrote long letters that were VERY specific about triangulation, emotional incest, codependency, alcoholism. I was so determined that I would show my parents what they'd done. Of course they were just furious and attacked me for attacking them and blamed me in every conceivable way they could. I found out that no matter how insightfully I described things to my parents, I couldn't write them out of their denial. It was very important for me that I went through that process, but it was so painful giving up the belief that somehow my reality would be important to them. Actually, my reality was a threat to them, so they rejected it utterly. It's a lesson I've had to re-learn a few times. It's hard for me to hold onto the fact that my reality is MINE and other people don't have to validate it for it to be real. I had to go through a big bout of that again at work as I was bullied for 2 years and really, that experience was about my trying to be liked by someone who had switched into the devalue and discard stage and I just didn't want to accept that. And I did the same thing again with my POA. The steps have really helped me with that because I saw very clearly how I was trying to get a sense of myself from other people and how I really felt I needed them to see things my way.
Also, I have a warning in my own family about why I have to let go of trying to get my parents to see things my way. Each year my aunt flies home to scotland to see her mother (my grandmother). And for a couple of weeks my aunt explodes with rage and tries every tactic she can think of to get my grandmother to see how horrendous it was for my aunt to be abused by my grandfather. My grandmother says horrific things like "you wanted that to happen, your father told me you made him do it". Just the most unspeakable, horrific things are said, and my aunt goes crazy with the pain of trying to get her reality validated, and in the process terrorises an old frail woman in her 70s. The two of them love each other but they fight over the image of a dead man and it is horrible and it keeps them both trapped in some kind of act out of the wound that is a game in itself and will never help either of them. I know I can't do that to myself, so I know I need to be able to validate my own reality and not hold onto the hope that my parents or my POA will see things my way. P.
|
|
|
Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 9, 2010 6:51:08 GMT -5
Quinn, I can relate to your story in that I want to be wanted by my POAs -- even if I don't want them. This most likely can be traced back to not feeling wanted by my father from birth. He wanted a boy (even though he already had two sons) and my mom said he didn't even go to the hospital when I was born. I was named by a woman sharing the hospital room with my mom post-delivery because my parents had only picked out a boy's name. I never understood why my mom told me that story (several times). As a mother, that is not something I would have shared. Still, I'm glad my mom clued me in to the circumstances of my birth because it has helped me understand my issues surrounding rejection. I have a question (as usual). You wrote that your POA obsessed over you for years before switching roles with him becoming avoidant. How does that happen? What dynamics are behind that? Any ideas? OK, there's more than one question. Prim, I too have put a lot of energy into trying to get my reality validated. In your aunt's case, maybe she wants her mom to comfort her and apologize to her for not protecting her from the abuse. My mom died seven years ago, just before I was diagnosed with cancer. One of the last things she said to me was, "I hope you have some good memories from your childhood." Through tears, I assured her that I did. What went unspoken is that those memories involved her, not my father. I knew my mom did the best she could. Did I wish for support and empathy from my mom and an apology for not protecting me from my father's abuse? Yes, but in my family if you violated the no-talk rule then it was shoot the messenger time. I know I need to be able to validate my own reality, but how do I get there? Is accepting that others won't see things the way I see them the key? Or something else? Any ideas?
|
|
|
Post by primrose on Jul 9, 2010 7:21:55 GMT -5
Iwillsurvive, I really recommend the steps for changing that self-seeking behaviour. I didn't understand it at all before doing 4-5 and I thought I knew most things about myself. Every single one of my resentments was about me seeking a sense of self through others and then blaming them for not showing me a version of myself that I liked. In childhood I needed my parents to mirror who I was and they didn't do it well, but as an adult I carried that on into everything. Slaa has been so helpful for me because there's such wisdom in the programme about letting go of using people to get a sense of self. I'm still working on this because it's huge for me, but I often really don't mind other people thinking stuff about me that in the past would have cut me to the core. In the past I used contempt to protect me, I still do that, well I'm an avoidant and it takes time to change, but I need it less and less. The steps are brilliant at helping people work out what is theirs to deal with, and what just isn't. P.
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Jul 9, 2010 9:51:56 GMT -5
Angel—having read your post, I have to admit maybe I do want him to suffer a bit. I mean, really, if I'm picturing him regretting his decision for the rest of his life and wishing he still had me, isn't that suffering?
I do want him to UNDERSTAND what he did though even more than I want him to do a little suffering. Like you Prim, I also spent a period of time (10 years) trying to get my parents to acknowledge my reality about how it was growing up in their house. Letters, phone calls, explaining in every different way I could think of. But of course, just like your parents, this simply caused them to become even more insistent on THEIR version of reality.
I did finally let go of this about five years ago and reconciled with them. Sent them one final letter actually saying I'm letting it go and we don't need to talk about it anymore and things have been much nicer since then. I let go of it because I realized finally that I could forgive them even if they never believe what I am saying. Hearing the story of your aunt and grandmother reenforces for me the importance of this. I can't imagine continuing to have that kind of horrible scene until the day they die.
IWS, in answer to your question about how one validates one's own reality, I would say that, yes, a big part of it is accepting that others are not going to see them the way I do. It's like the thing in the Converting POAs post about trying to make someone see things the way I see them. I realized that this is hostile and controlling and that other people's reality belongs to them not to me. This frees me to just focus on what is true for me and let go of needing others to agree.
As for my stbx, I guess I'm not ready to forgive him yet. Forgiveness involves some thinking about what it is I'm forgiving and I don't want to think about him or our lives at all right now. I think I'm afraid that if I do I will get triggered and start being in pain again.
In answer to your question about my POA switching roles, I think Pia Melody describes that dynamic perfectly in her book Facing Love Addiction. That book was such a revelation for me. It's a huge part of what gave me the courage to look at the reality of my relationship and move out of the house.
My POA is an avoidant but he was able to obsess over me easily for the first five years of our relationship because I lived some distance away so we only saw each other on weekends. He made me his POA which was easy for him because he had most of the week all to himself. When we moved in together things started shifting and he became more withdrawn. Because he was SO obsessed with me to start with, when he started withdrawing I didn't recognize what was happening. I thought he was just shifting to a more normal, less obsessive way of relating. I thought it was a good thing.
As time went on the stress on him, as an avoidant, of having to actually see his POA every day caused him to spend more and more time away from me until eventually, some years after getting married, he actually started seeing me as his albatross. He started obsessing about other women and I became the object upon which he could project all of his negative feelings.
|
|
|
Post by knowlove on Jul 9, 2010 10:24:28 GMT -5
sexlessw-I am not one of 7. I am a twin and it is just the two of us. 7??? eek! lol Quinn, I too think it is more of wanting to be wanted. If he is "around" I am much more laid back and dont really feel much pull there but once he disappears I start getting that itch. If I know he is invisible and online and doesn't contact me I am ok where I used to obsess, get upset, dwell on it and conjure up all kinds of reasons why he wouldn't be talking. Now I know it is how he is. But, if it happened for a long period of time I admit it might bother me because yes, he wouldn't be wanting me or thin king of me and that is what it all seems to be about! Having someone think of me, want me, care about me. It's what I felt I didn't have as a child so it kind of makes sense that is what I am looking for over and over. It's funny because I think about him and ask myself what it really is I am looking for, need or want from him. Escape from my real life I think but still not sure why. That is still the big mystery. What am I running from, not wanting to deal with or fix. If anyone else knows or thinks they have it figured out, feel free to fill me in! For some reasonIi have a huge wall there that wont let me in.
|
|