|
Post by quinn on Jun 12, 2010 10:47:51 GMT -5
I read a thing today by a Christian/Hindu guy who said that Christians should renounce attempts to convert others to Christianity because "where there is a mission to convert there is violence—a violation of someone else's identity and core belief."
This really struck me as being the same thing I do when I have tried co-dependently to get my POA to hear me, understand me, love me, see things how I do, etc. He has his own beliefs about the way the world is and his own identity and it's not for me to try to change.
I spent 20 years working on converting him to my way of how our relationship should look. I wish it had occurred to me back then to see this as me being violent rather than me being more "evolved" than him. Even the language I have used—"I have to save him!" sounds like a religious conversion.
I want to be content with letting him be himself, with no judgement from me, while at the same time I find a way to stand up for myself and not let myself get railroaded by him into a settlement that is unjust.
|
|
|
Post by phoenix on Jun 12, 2010 10:55:23 GMT -5
Quinn, You are very wise, thanks for sharing this insight. It IS very much like proselytizing, I had never thought of trying to get another in relationship to see it our way in that context. That idea is very helpful for me. That is actually been one of my beefs with Christianity over the years...why are they trying so hard to convert people?
I praying for you today Quinn...be the strong wise woman I am knowing you to be. Phoenix
|
|
|
Post by primrose on Jun 13, 2010 4:48:42 GMT -5
I really like this. In my step 4 over and over again I wrote "I wanted him\her to be different from how he\she really was". I just could not come to terms with others being different from how I wanted them to be. Giving up chasing my POAs love was also me giving up trying to shoe-horn him into being what I thought I wanted him to be. Also, I did see that I was more interested in chasing love rather than having love. I was only interested in the unobtainable man. Had I managed to force him to be what I wanted, I would immediately have lost interest and gone off looking for the next frog to transform. P.
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Jun 17, 2010 15:50:56 GMT -5
Student, I re-read my post and the others below mine and don't see anything negative about religion so I'm not sure what you're referring to. In my post I was agreeing with the author I was referring to who said that all religions should be respected. And that just as all religions should be respected, so should we not try to convert our POAs to our way of thinking.
I hope this is more clear, but if you are feeling bad about it, please let me know why. I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone.
|
|
|
Post by primrose on Jun 18, 2010 2:52:18 GMT -5
Thank you for resolving this difference of opinion so gracefully and also by PM, it's very good of you both. It's early days on the site so we don't yet have guidelines written up. Certainly we want to be respectful of all beliefs and respectful of each other when we express differences. If either of you would like to bring any opinions to a group conscience, please do. Best. P.
|
|
|
Post by g on Jun 18, 2010 9:15:25 GMT -5
Wow! have written TWO long replies to this thread and lost both when I hit send. Long story short. I don't think you Quinn, or you Phoenix said anything wrong or even remotely offensive (I'm a Christian and Catholic) My HP is telling me to say no more by not allowing me to post
|
|
|
Post by rickfaith on Jun 18, 2010 9:25:20 GMT -5
a big of the conversion movement started..(denied by church) ...when the ancient trade routes were being disputed between muslim and christian factions (money and commerce) ...ie....if a series of communties villages along a geographic area were beloing to one sect,....they would deal with certain buisnessmen etc and so on...so ... GET thwem converts...control the economy!! many share that opinion including myself.
I liked what the first post said about what the hindu/chruistian man said... it sooo true...dont assume for me that i need YOUR beliefs!!! Or you need MINE!!! Arrrgghhhh.... I just wanna go to church and sing a hymn and give thanks...dont wanna be indoctrinated...or feel i have to cvhange... god knows me, and what i am...he is quite content i believe...that i find peace in the 12 steps with my own understanding of God. Thank God for recovery!! I no longer have to wear chains around my neck from someones forced views.
|
|
|
Post by g on Jun 18, 2010 9:33:36 GMT -5
I admit I spent a long long time tying to convert my POA back to our religion ( we both went to same catholic High School). Big mistake that I hope never to repeat again. I lost my faith and made POA my HP. And what good could I ever have got out of that? Boy am I tired today! Barely staying awake. Primrose, your 'brute in suit' comment had me laughing out loud! G
|
|
|
Post by knowlove on Jun 18, 2010 9:41:20 GMT -5
Quinn, I too am a Christian and would never push my religious views on anyone. I feel what I do is between me and God. When I post the word God I am saying so as He is MY HP. Does not mean I expect others to feel that way, just writing down my feelings. If someone is atheist I feel that is their right. We are all different and I do not feel my belief is better or right and someone else's is wrong, it is just mine! I understood exactly what you were saying about how the article made you think of how we try to convert our POA's to our way of thinking and what we want. I did not feel you were slighting Christians, just comparing to some who do indeed force their beliefs on others (as some do no matter what their beliefs!) That just happened to be what the article was about. I am sorry someone was offended by this as I totally understood what you were saying. This will happen at times. I felt you handled it very well and were respectful in asking for clarification and wanted to know what you had said.
|
|
|
Post by Rilly on Jun 18, 2010 10:10:42 GMT -5
I believe that God's laws are consistent with natural laws. As civilization progresses we learn more and more about natural laws. If you were to go back 4000 years and show someone an IPod, they would think it was either devil's work or some kind of miracle. They wouldn't be able to understand how it worked. In the same way, God's laws are higher than our laws. It is all about our present understanding. We are progressing.
There is a blessing and natural consequence attached to each law. It is like: Thou shalt not jump off that cliff. It doesn't matter whether you believe or not. The consequence is the same. When Christ said, "The truth shall make you free", it meant being free from the consequences of breaking laws. Whether you believe in the Ten Commandments or not, the idea of not stealing, coveting, or committing adultery is still a way to avoid a lot of consequences. Sometimes we get bogged down with ceremonial factors and fail to see how much all the religions have in common.
Truth is truth. Truth is light. I prayed that, regardless of what religion we do or don't adhere to, that we will each be enlightened.
Rilly
|
|
|
Post by quinn on Jun 18, 2010 10:18:18 GMT -5
I tried to PM Student, but she is no longer registered and so the message can't get sent. It looks like her post has also been deleted. So I want to say this here in case she is reading as a guest:
Thanks for the PM. I'm sorry the post felt like a negative comment about Christianity. I think part of the problem was that the quote, out of context from the rest of the book, gave the wrong impression. I was so immersed in it (a book written by a Benedictine monk and Hindu who loves both religions) that I missed how the quote might appear to some people who only saw that one sentence.
My avatar is a Buddha, but my religious orientation is interspiritual. I love and appreciate things about Buddhism, Hinduism, and Christianity (among others.) But when I refer to spirituality in posts I always use the term HP rather than God, specifically because I don't want to presume a God that others don't believe in or want. I should have done the same with the post on converting and changed the quote in some way so that Christianity was not referred to. I regret that I didn't think of that.
I do, however, stand by my original point, which is that converting POA's to my way of thinking and believing can be seen as hostile and violent. My POA has his own way of looking at the world and it's not for me to say he should see things any differently.
|
|
|
Post by primrose on Jun 18, 2010 10:44:43 GMT -5
(Primrose, your 'Bruit in Suit' expression had me laughing out loud but maybe that was on another thread?) G Yes, was on another thread, a thread about how my HP pre-recovery was a "brute in a suit". And yes, I really did worship him. Oh dear. Well I'm glad that's over. One thing I'm very grateful for is that as an atheist no-one in 12 step told me what I had to believe, and no-one seemed to care in the least about me going on about how much I struggled with the spiritual aspect of the programme. It helped me a lot. One friend did have a conversation with me where she said "Try TRY to believe" and I got so furious I nearly ate her, so we never spoke about it again, and I settled down in meetings and got on with praying and spitting bile about religion in the corner and finally made peace with it all and made peace with other people being different from me. It was a very helpful process for me. I am glad I found a fellowship where it really didn't matter what I believed. I was just safe and in a place where people understood my pain because they had experienced pain like that too. I think it's a wonderful thing that 12 step is so inclusive and accepting, and am happy that we can offer that on-line too. P.
|
|
|
Post by rickfaith on Jun 18, 2010 10:45:05 GMT -5
this is not a religous site.... if it is i am out of here... but...I know it isnt. It is a spiritual program...if religion did it all for me...whyn would I need this? religion cant do it all for me...but the spirituality of people ahring their innermost selves is what makes me not feel alone, your experiences and strength help me grow and re,late to someone ion a world or lonely addiction thats a real hope and help...thats how it works. I have met all kijknds in my tkme on recovery sites...some like attention and yell TRIGGER if you type one little word...a word that they probably here and or say every day.... i was like that early in my recovery too, one little word would be an excuse for me to stay in my crap. Now I know i cannot try and control people by yelliong trigger...and if someone triggers me with a word...IT IS MY ISSUE and one I need to work on...not force my views in any way on anyone. Have to be tactful and respectful of course but we cant let oursleves be controlled to the ;point nwhere we cant use language to esxpress ourselves...it is a typed word site after all. I know for me if someone jokes with me about something in person it dont mean nothing...and yet in early recovery i would sieze the opp to get attention by yelling (or crying_) trigger!! If i am so messed up i cant here anyone say certyain words...then maybe an online site aint the best llace for me to be. Now, i dont refer to any of the above posts or anyone here...DO NOT take out of context please... thx I am merely chatting about my own experiences for me, thats all. I let people be who they are as much as i can...trying to control others is an issue for addicts worldwide...because we feel so out of control we want to clontrol people places and things...but...it dont work...and when it dont work we often get childish and sooky.... like babies that we often are. I hope we all can express our beliefs without having people get too dramatic...i mean as long as it isnt directed directly at me and about me...I could care less what bel;iefs you guys have...they are yours.... maybe with an open mind i can learn from you?> But if i hang up and shut you out i can learn nothing. Love to all y'll. Hugs not drugs.
|
|
|
Post by walkingonwater on Jun 21, 2010 11:05:41 GMT -5
Hi guys,
Well as some of you know, I'm a fully paid up born-again Christian, known for going round saying 'Jesus loves you' and other stereotypical stuff such as that.
I didn't find what you wrote offensive, I would just say that it was negative about Christianity. Nowadays most people are, certainly in the UK. In terms of the 'religion vs spirituality' thing, not sure exactly what people's definitions are. Often I think they mean 'organised and traditional religion vs a more liberal and general understanding of a higher power'. And people are generally pretty negative about religion in that sense, and therefore Christianity.
I only tell people about my faith because it is such a major part of me that I can't avoid it, and also that I would like people to know the amazing difference that Jesus has made to my life. If they are interested and want to hear it, I can talk more. I don't feel that I'm forcing it on anyone, people can believe what they wish. But if you've found a treasure you want other people to be able to find it. Some people might be overbearing and controlling but not everyone.
Before I was a Christian I used to be really negative about Christians, think they were all self-righteous homophobes who liked to tell people what to do. In reality my experience of Christians is a vast range of different kinds of people on different stages of spiritual growth, but generally have found an amazing love for others... who go and do charity work, loving others and trying to restore relationships without seeking something for it in return.
Also the 12 steps has a Christian basis and initially was worked by people who were only in the religions of the US at the time, i.e. the various Christian ones and Judaism, and so we have a lot to be thankful for that heritage in the big book etc.
I know it's not very fashionable at the moment to stick up for Jesus (and particularly to stick up for evangelising!!) but I felt I had to do it! And only in my second post on the board ;-)
|
|
|
Post by g on Jun 21, 2010 11:36:23 GMT -5
I'm a Christian. I've said so before. But I propose we have guidelines because I honestly feel we should not be discussing religion. The 12 steps is not a religious program. I'm fine about saying God or HP. If anybody wants us to stay with 'HP' alone I'm fine with that too.
Group conscience will decide about this issue
I honestly feel nothing offensive was said about Christianity on this thread - just the objective truth and that's coming from a churchgoing Roman Catholic. Greta
|
|