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Post by knowlove on Jul 2, 2010 21:23:36 GMT -5
Most know my story but for those who do not, quick overview. Married many years. H cheated awhile back. Absolutely devastated me. Since finding out, even though have had counseling multiple times, have had several POA's. Got caught every time. My previous was 4 years ago. Thought Id never do it again. HA! The ever naive addict says! Last year met current POA. Young, flirtatious and very good looking good sexually which I miss from my M as H is not too caring about me that way. Sorry if TMI. Anyway, started an affair and had many ups and downs because he was wishy washy and was not available much. He lives in a state where I visit frequently. This past Spring, after realizing my expectations for this were very different from his AND most importantly realizing I was a full blown LA, I decided I was going to stop the madness (yeah right). He contacted me and I had a long conversation with him, told him my feelings, why etc. I was surprised to find he was not only communicative but listened as well and answered my questions honestly. Three days after this, I see on his Facebook he is in a relationship. Now even though this hurt me greatly, I realize I have no rights as I am married. Who am I to tell him he cannot see anyone? I have been working very hard on my recovery while trying to figure out what to do with this POA. He has never lied to me nor treated me meanly. I saw him again when I returned to his state with my son who needed counseling as we found out he was doing drugs (you may all remember this as it was just this past month). Again had very long conversation with POA. Since this time, he has been in contact with me almost every or every other day. Before this it was every 3 weeks or so. This last time I was extremely honest, told him why I was with him, how I felt (didnt say anything about being in love as I am not ) about him and my marriage, but that I deserve consideration and thought. He told me up front when we first talked when I came back to town that he was seeing someone. He said he would feel bad seeing me but that was quickly thrown out the window. He has done 100% turn around. I have been so conflicted with this. I am working on my recovery trying to find myself and who I am. I care about this man and feel he has been very honest with me. Besides pulling away before, he has not done anything purposely to hurt me. I am all over the place. I do not know if I am coming or going, how I feel about anything right now and wanted to have some type of resolution. Since I have not found this I wanted to come clean on here and tell all of you what has been going on. I had hoped I could take care of this and resolve the issue but I have not been able to do this. If I cannot be honest with all of you, who can I be honest with? I thought after leaving the last time I could go NC but that was not possible as he continued contact and then i had the problems with my son which caused stress between H and I and there was POA, kind, considerate, listening. I feel I have come a very long way since the beginning when I first came to LA. I continue to work on myself and try to figure out what I am lacking, what my needs are, what my POA gives me that my H does not besides no criticism, no judging, no flack for my beliefs. I know full well this is wrong. I know this. I know we all say NC is best. Right now, I do not feel this way. I do not feel I am in trouble or reverting back because I say what I need to say without fear of his reaction. I no longer feel it has to be about him. I no longer worry about losing his friendship. I say what I have to say. I am not in love but know I do care deeply about him. I wanted to tell you all because I do not want to appear a hypocrite. You all deserve to know where I am in my recovery and how I feel. Ive questioned whether I should even be here as I know the board usually calls for NC. I feel I am struggling with myself right now. My beliefs, needs, my desires, my soul, what I am all about. I need to find ME and I want to heal and get better. I love you all and feel you are my closest friends who understand me completely and do not think I am crazy (uh........well not too crazy). Thanks always for your support and being here for me. I feel like I've disappointed you all. Knowlove.
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Post by g on Jul 3, 2010 3:31:46 GMT -5
Honey, That was very brave of you. Well done. If my POA hadn't been so manipulative with me, perhaps I would still be in that triangle. But he was and he hurt my feelings a lot. Sometimes I felt he did that deliberately and at other times inadvertently. Another difference was that I thought I loved him and told him so all the time while he would sit there on the other end of webcam and grin and joke about not being able to do emotions. Very teasy, very ambiguous, a real master at keeping me hooked. He was however upfront about not having anything to offer me apart from cyberS and friendship. He was more than willing to keep in contact just as friends while I wasn't able to do that because of my extreme jealousy and his apparent nonchalance when talking about all the good things that were going on for him and his wife and family. I knew what I was doing was wrong but he always argued that as long as noone got hurt, we were entitled to our special, ahem, friendship. Having my POA in my life didn't fill the void but accentuated it. My online r/s was truly an escape from all my problems at home and what I kind considered an alternative comfortable realm for the real me.
9 mths of recovery later. ( A few pings and lots of obsessing about my POA so definitely not NC) I am not really any further ahead in my marriage. Same problems with H, same differences, not in love with my husband but I do care deeply for him, I'm mostly avoiding S intimacy But you know what Knowlove? My life is manageable. It's no longer the nightmare that it was and the longing has gone. I KNOW now that my POA was not the solution but was actually causing me to keep all my inner turmoil locked up inside. Breaking away from him ( he was my crutch, my confidant and my 'best' (worst) friend for 16 mths) I was able to get back on my feet and thru stepwork and a lot of heartbreaking introspection I have grown more in the last 9 mths than in the rest of my life. 9 mths of gestation to get where I am now. If I had stayed in the triangle God knows where I would be now!
Yes, I'm pretty addicted to the board and to the fellowship. I reach out to my dear friends and you are there for me and I for you. But my conscience is clear because this is healthy addiction. Over the last week or so I've made headway and I'm getting closer to the old me. I'm happy to go out on my own for a walk round town, or just spending time in the kitchen or cleaning the house. Sitting by the pool a little or looking forward to dancing at the weekend. My marriage is just okay but at least my life is manageable. Far more manageable than when my POA was always there to listen to me and to console me. All I'm trying to say hon is that a POA clouds our thinking and doesn't help us get to our core issues cos connecting with them is easier than connecting with ourselves. Facing our demons without our poa safety net is very scary but it can be done. We're all here for each other. Once again, thanks for coming clean. You've taken a huge step towards finding yourself! G x
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Post by quinn on Jul 3, 2010 10:09:01 GMT -5
Knowlove, Thanks so much for letting us know where you are. You are absolutely right in asking—if you can't be honest here, where can you be? In my opinion, whether you are in NC or not, whether you slip or not, disappointing your friends in recovery is not possible. Because we're not here to judge each other, we're here to listen and support, and yes challenge at times, but not to be the authority over each others recovery. I so want everyone here to be able to come clean about whatever "crazy" thing they are doing without fear of disappointing anyone (except ourselves I guess.) You are not a hypocrite. You are a brave person being as honest as you can be about where you are at.
Here are my thoughts about you and POA (take what is helpful and ignore what is not): It seems like part of your confusion and conflict about what to do is related to this—"he has been very honest with me. Besides pulling away before, he has not done anything purposely to hurt me." There are so many sh!thead POAs written about here that you might be thinking that if your POA is truly a good person, you should stay in contact. But the reality is it doesn't matter if your POA is a monster or the kindest person that ever lived—it is your addiction that is the issue, not his behavior. As long as you feel this: "I am all over the place. I do not know if I am coming or going, how I feel about anything right now" it is an indication that talking with him is triggering you and not helpful for you, regardless of what a good person he is.
There is nothing sacred or holy about NC. It's something to do (if you want to) simply because it works. It gives you distance and time away from your POA so your head can clear, you can see what you really feel and what you have been projecting. You can know what the right thing is to do for your life. One thing I know for sure from my own life is that it is just about impossible to see the truth about a marriage when I am in an additive process. There is no way to make changes in a marriage (or to discover it is time to leave) when one is focusing all the attention on someone outside of the marriage.
I never had an affair, but I did have, for years, a best friend who was a narcissist and pretty much of a POA for me. I have no doubt the unhealthy intensity of our friendship kept me from seeing the truth about my marriage for many years longer than it would have if I had not had that relationship. She eventually broke up our friendship (I stopped being the doting codependent so the relationship no longer worked for her) and within a few months I could suddenly see clearly how empty and sad my marriage was. Which led to me finally dealing with it rather than avoiding the problems.
Hugs to you. Keep posting.
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Post by knowlove on Jul 3, 2010 13:33:33 GMT -5
Thank you both for your very kind words and taking time to support me, it means so much and I value both of your opinions greatly. Am working right now in trying to distance myself. Know what you say is more than true Quinn. It isnt about whether he is nice or not, its about me and my addiction. Thanks for making things clearer. I appreciate all of you and the support, help and words of wisdom no matter what they are. Sometimes we need other people to point out what is so obvious and right in front of us!
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Post by trout46 on Jul 3, 2010 14:15:43 GMT -5
Knowlove: Just want to echo Quinn's excellent and sage comments. It is so easy for us (at least it is for me) to begin to rationalize in the most bizzare ways when we are (I am) obsessing about our POAs. I know all too well the clever, scheming, thought patterns of my addict mind. Left to its own devices, I would never stick with N/C, I would succumb to my withdrawal pain, and I would never make recovery progress.
And I also agree that honesty--particularly self honesty--is the key to our recovery. I takes strength and a strong desire to recover to be honest with yourself, and with the fellowship. I agree with Quinn's comments on this issue as well. You are always safe here. When a group begins to judge and criticize its members, something is terribly wrong and extremely dysfunction. (See, if you haven't, Rickfaith's recent post about his experience at a recent AA meeting for an example of this.)
Keep up the great work!
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Post by sexlessw on Jul 4, 2010 6:51:27 GMT -5
KnowLove:
Hello! Thank you for posting what is going on with you. As a fellow MW who has had two EMAs (or something resembling EMAs - ha), I understand what you are writing.
Are you divorced or are you still married? Is your marriage sexless like mine? Or is it like living with a stranger?
It's my opinion - mine only - and you know I've given you advice before - that you cannot be with two men at the same time for a relationship to work. That's a tri-pod, not a table.
One should not start one relationship until the first relationship has ended. Easily written! You're reading the writings of a woman who can't seem to follow that piece of advice, but I digress.
We never leave FOR somebody else. We leave the first relationship FOR OURSELVES. And that is so darned difficult.
When we let the OM/OP in because we are most definately LACKING in some part of our lives, they give us a fleeting happiness. Fleeting happiness - not a full contentment. Full contentment lies within our selves. You are seeing this now, yes?
I'm not going to advocate NC for you - if you are okay with LC at the moment, that's fine. If you're getting *something* good out of LC with him, good for you. However, that can't continue on forever. That will end at some point. Your POA is going to want to make a decision - nobody likes to be left emotionally hanging (then again, some do - they thrive on it)
I do have one question for you. Does your POA's GF know about you? If she does, that's good. If she doesn't then he's not being upfront with her about his emotional relationship with you. And IMO that is NOT okay.
I firmly believe in openness in these issues - my DH knows about Aspen and my 1st AP. I understand that doesn't work for everyone.
Please continue to post - nice seeing you over here.
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Post by knowlove on Jul 4, 2010 8:23:57 GMT -5
Thank you Trout and Sexlessw. To answer your Q's s- my M is not sexless but has many issues. I have no idea what my POA has told his GF. I did not ask. He is not one to hold things in or lie but that is with me. I have no idea what or how he acts with her, how serious it is, or if they are seeing each other and the door is open? No idea. I agree with everything you both have written. I know this cannot go on and I know it has to end. Just have to have the willpower. I have already planned out spending more time with H to get closer and spend less time available or outwardly obsessing for POA. Some days I feel perfectly fine and secure in things no matter what happens and other days I care more. I can't say I would have a lot of withdrawal pain because I've done so much on my recovery front, talking to him, deciding in my mind before that it was over (when I saw he had the GF I naturally assumed he was done with me-wrongly). I would be upset and I do believe Id go through missing him but not so sure it would be as bad as it would have months ago. I guess right now it depends on the day since I am up and down. Sexlessw you are so right when you say my judgment is clouded because of POA still being in the picture. I couldn't agree with you more. Lot os work ahead of me that is for sure. Thank you all for your kind words, level headedness and support. Cannot tell you how much it helps.
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Post by sexlessw on Jul 5, 2010 6:49:44 GMT -5
KnowLove:
Thanks for answering my pesky questions. You wrote that your M is not sexless but has many issues. Indeed, that is why you are here - lots to work thru. You know, I just think EVERY marriage is sexless - ha. How Narcissistic is that of me.
I think it would be wise for you to find out if he told his GF about his interactions with you. In this case, information is necessary. If he is truly one who doesn't lie or hold things in, that's good. Yet, you cannot be sure if he is selective about what information he gives to each person in his life.
KnowLove, sadly, when the POA is still in the picture of our hearts and minds, the clouds continue. Is this bad for us or good for us? Now, that depends on which day it is.
You are definately in a transitional state. Regarding your M - that's between you and your DH. If there are things you need to hold on to, keep holding on and working thru it.
Having a POA re-enter our lives tests us. Perhaps that is what you needed at this moment - one more test to get to where YOU need to be. I dunno - just a thought.
We ALL have lots of work to do still.
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Post by knowlove on Jul 5, 2010 9:45:23 GMT -5
Sexlessw-dont mind the pesky questions. They need to be asked and it helps bring me more clarity. Like you say it really does depend on the day. Last two days more into taking care of ME and not worried about how POA feels at all. Funny how that all works. The whole entire picture really is about us though isn't it? How we feel, what we are feeling at the time, what is happening in our lives. I learned this from being here-that all of this "stuff" is about ME and me alone. Granted how I feel about DH and what is going on in the M at the time greatly affects my feelings but again, it's all on me and my feelings. Yes, lots of work still to do. Thanks for the words of wisdom, questions and support. I agree, will be putting the question to POA soon enough about the GF.
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Post by g on Jul 5, 2010 9:56:08 GMT -5
knowlove, dare I say this? yes I will cos you know how much I care about you. I wouldn't bother asking your POA about his GF. It's none of our business what our POAs do in their lives because bottomline is that they shouldnt be in our lives in the first place. I was ALWAYS asking my POA what he was up to and who he would be seeing. Uggghhhh the very memory of the gut wrenching feeling I would get when I knew I couldn't be part of his life...that I had no right to be asking him anything. That I was trespassing Triangles are just so unhealthy. I can't talk about just how unhealthy the two triangles were when i was involved with my POA (him,me, his DW/ him,me my DH)...not in a public post... but they are doomed from the getgo. Excruciatingly painful when you have feelings for your spouse as well as for your POA. If anything I'd leave things as they are...or put an end to the triangles you're in too. Okay, now you have my permission to tell me I'm giving advice and should keep my mouth shut, dear friend G
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Post by knowlove on Jul 5, 2010 9:59:41 GMT -5
G- you know better than that. I would never tell you that! I value your advice and always will.
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Post by g on Jul 5, 2010 10:01:54 GMT -5
(((((Knowlove)))))
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Post by primrose on Jul 5, 2010 11:43:39 GMT -5
Hi Knowlove, wow lovely posts on this thread! I've been working like mad this last week, but before I did I had a few days away in the country and it was just glorious. I was reading and thinking about self acceptance a lot. I was reading about how the best way to let change happen is to fully accept oneself. So really accepting who we are, good and bad, is the key to transformation. I've been told it so many times, but you know it can take me a million years to process the simplest things. I guess that weekend I was really ready to accept it. I am okay just as I am, whatever I am.
I have a sponsee at the moment who isn't ready to work a programme, and that it really truly okay. She'll get it if and when she's ready and what she's learnt so far is great and will stand her in good stead. I do work a tough programme in SLAA, it's very hard line, and it really worked for me to do that. BUT. It worked for me when I needed that. Not before, and possibly not after. I think God (or HP or the unconscious, whatever it is that guides people) is very wise, and I think people know when the time is right to do things a certain way. And it doesn't make anyone "bad" to not be working NC or a tough programme.
Personally, I don't think triangulation works ever. I think oftentime people say "oh we're very honest with each other" to counterbalance the duplicity of lying to the unknowing partner. There has to be truth somewhere in the mix. I certainly did that in my EMA and did it consciously to balance out my lies to my husband. And I love what Quinn says about it not mattering if your POA is a good guy, it's your addiction that's the issue. V helpful that. And I agree with Sexless and G about using a POA to hide from real issues. My POA was such a great distraction from reality! Also, willpower rarely, if ever, helps with addiction. Surrendering, accepting that you are powerless is what will help you stop. Wanting to do it on your own and "catch up" with others on the board is probably not really going to work, much better to do what you're doing and be honest here. We're all dealing with something very very difficult to put down. It's a powerful addiction. We're all doing our best, sometimes my best is great, sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's, well, rubbish! But it's fine. Progress not perfection. I hope when we're better organised that we'll have slip questions so that there's support for people who aren't managing to go NC or LC. That way people don't have to feel like they have to leave if they're not clean. Best. P.
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Post by trout46 on Jul 5, 2010 11:49:40 GMT -5
I wish I could contribute to this very interesting conversation, but I have never had the experience of a POA--even an EMA--during my (second) marriage. My ex-w is my POA;thus, a wholly different circumstance.
That said, it is obvious that you are in the cloud of transition knowlove. I have to agree with Greta's last points about leaving the details of POA's personal life aside. Otherwise, you risk creating a situation that would be like having two Hs. One is probably enough! (I know my ex was all I could handle when we were together.)
One issue that I can't help but to be drawn to is the entire question of what we need to know from those we are intimately involved with. The more I make progress in recovery, the more I can see that my ex-w/POA had an insatiable, unhealthy, and over-the-top need to know ALL the details of my past--past relationships in particular. I'm talking about relationships I had with other W that completely preceded our relationship. And what I experienced in disclosing things to her, was that every time she became jealous, angry, etc. with me, she would throw back at me the details of past relationshps that I had disclosed to her at her insistance. There is something wrong with this picture, but I couldn't see it while I was in the relationship.
Some of you might recall from my earlier posts on the other site that even after we had broken up the second time, my ex-w's insatiable need led her to rummage through my computer. When she found my 4th step "confessional" work, she really must have felt that she hit pay dirt! Among the things I disclosed in my 4th and 5th steps, was an EMA I had in my first marriage. I had told my POA about the EMA when we were first together. I thought telling her that was a form of "putting my cards and baggage on the table."
Well, as it turns out, the info I shared with her wasn't enough. So, when she found my 4th step work on my computer, and my description of this early EMA from another relationship, she went so far as to call the woman I had the affair with, who was apparently all too happy to talk to my ex about our "relationship." When I returned home that day (had not moved out of the house we shared yet, but did the very next day as a result of this event), she threw additional details of my EMA at me. I was honestly stunned, and have remained so until just recently. When I asked why she would do such a thing, her reply was that I had "hid" details of my EMA from her. Her "logic," if it could be called that, was that I had a responsibility to share with her every single thing I had ever done in my prior life; especially things involving other women. To my ex-w, this was another example of my having "lied" to her. (What I finally came to understand, was that if there was something about me--even something that way predated our having met--that she didn't know, then I had been "lying" about it to her!)
Perhaps I am the one that is wrong-headed here, and if so, I depend upon you guys to straighten me out. But Greta'a comments above about it being "none of our business what our POAs do in their lives," triggered this memory, and resulted in my thinking that in some situations, this also applies to our spouses. How much do we need to disclose to our spouses about the nitty gritty details of prior relationships? I thought I had acted in a very forthright manner in telling my ex, at the outset of our developing relationship, that I had an EMA affair in my first marriage. I didn't tell her every detail--particularly, every sexual detail--about the EMA. Frankly, to me, who in their right mind would reveal such (unnecessary) details?!
Sorry I am going off on this tangent, but I have been conversing with another LRAA member a lot lately about our LA experiences, and this issue came up. I decided I wanted to see how others would also respond and interpret this situation. Although I have been experiencing growth in my recovery efforts lately, some situations (interpretations, understandings, analyses of past events) still elude me, and this is one of them.
Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
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Post by primrose on Jul 5, 2010 12:06:00 GMT -5
Trout, that need for every single piece of information is an addiction in itself, so I'm not surprised it overwhelmed you. It's the "hungry ghost", the insatiable need for information. It feeds itself and is never sated. It's kin to the need for perfect care that some LRA's experience too. Addictive jealousy can't be appeased. If people have addictive jealousy and posessiveness it's best to bottom line searching behaviours and asking questions. Obviously your ex isn't in recovery, but you were having to deal with addictive behaviour and that is very hard to be on the receiving end of. P.
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