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Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 9, 2010 10:39:39 GMT -5
Thanks prim for pointing me to the steps. I am on Step 4 and probably will be for a while. I'm sure there is a lot of info in my resentments. Are you still a step sponsor? Are we planning to have step work posted on this site?
Quinn, I found your answers to my questions to be quite informative. When I read what you wrote about accepting other people's right to their own reality, it hit me that this is really a boundary issue. In a family like mine, where there was so much enmeshment, we were not allowed to have our own reality. When I try to convince others of my point of view, it really is intrusive. How controlling is that? Thanks for the mirror even if I don't like what's in it. Prim also reflected that sentiment.
Back to quinn, interesting about your avoidant POA who obsessed about you as long as you weren't in too close a proximity. Once you were in the same place, he distanced (perhaps because of feelings of engulfment). Boy, have I seen this played out in my life. My second ex-h is about to marry for the fourth time. He obsesses about his girlfriends and then gets married and flips into avoidant mode. The only person he wants is the one who he is not with at that moment. I also have an avoidant side so I need to look to see if that pattern is active in my life as well. My last POA is very much like your ex. He is a retired pilot and spent a lot of time away from home in his long-term first marriage and when home he drank too much alcohol to disconnect. In our relationship, he came on very strong at first and was obsessed with me. I was actually not over a prior POA so I wasn't that interested at first. Then I became more into him and the closer we got, the more he distanced himself. He is already in the cycle with a new person.
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Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 9, 2010 11:10:09 GMT -5
sexlessw and knowlove -- I am the one of seven. ;D
knowlove wrote: "Having someone think of me, want me, care about me. It's what I felt I didn't have as a child so it kind of makes sense that is what I am looking for over and over." Ditto for me knowlove. Well said.
knowlove wrote: "If he is "around" I am much more laid back and dont really feel much pull there but once he disappears I start getting that itch." Just a thought, but I'm thinking of toddlers who are fine just as long as they know their mom is nearby, but fall apart when they're mom is out of range. Have you taken the attachment styles online test? It's under "outside causes." Has does your husband play into this situation?
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Post by g on Jul 9, 2010 11:32:19 GMT -5
Knowlove, you always say that you have no real idea of where your LA comes from. Could the fact that you are a twin have something to do with it? Think about how secure twins feel in the womb and then suddenly, after birth they no longer have that incredible closeness? G
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Post by sexlessw on Jul 9, 2010 11:36:37 GMT -5
IWillSurvive: I have to T/J here - your 2nd H - is getting married for a FOURTH time? WTF? Didn't he learn the first THREE times? Or hasn't his bank account taken that much of a hit the first three times? Must have a good attorney who draws up favorable prenuptual agreements.
Seriously, there is a pattern here between you and the men that you were attracted to. Are you somewhat fulfilled knowing you see the patterns? It's almost as if you could substitute one for the other NO MATTER what their occupation or names are. Now, that is interesting to me.
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Post by knowlove on Jul 9, 2010 14:49:02 GMT -5
iwillsurvive-That makes total sense!! Knowing your mom is nearby but when you cant see her you panic or feel fear. Now how does this affect me now and why? These are the the tough points. I can see where these things relate to each other but cannot connect the dots. My Mom was "there" but not there as she didnt like being a mother and as we grew older it became very clear. Not sure why things have to be so difficult to figure out. Working on my behavior, reactions, actions, etc. trying to keep addictive behavior under wraps and working on keeping myself busy. G, I was in the hospital for a month because I was born premature. No clue if that affected me or not. How would one even know?
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Post by quinn on Jul 9, 2010 15:42:13 GMT -5
IWS, your last POA is exactly like my stbx. I don't remember stbx drinking much at all the first years we were together and were living some distance apart. As soon as we moved in though, he started drinking and by the last two years he had a serious alcohol problem. The only way he could stand to be at home with me was if he was drinking. Actually he preferred to start his drinking BEFORE he got home so he could be even more avoidant than his sober avoidant self.
Knowlove, there have been tons of psychology studies done on newborns who are orphaned or left in hospitals for medical problems. They say that such babies grow up to have attachment/abandonment issues even when they go home to loving available parents. It totally makes sense to me that your earliest experiences of being left alone would continue to effect you later in life. The fact that we can't remember our experiences as babies seems to me to make it even more likely that those experiences impact us most strongly because we can't process and work through the things that we can't remember.
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Post by primrose on Jul 10, 2010 13:33:52 GMT -5
Iwillsurvive, hoping we'll have step work here soon! Just takes time to set it all in motion.
Quinn, I had a lightbulb moment when you wrote about your POA finding it harder and harder to be present. That is exactly my experience as an avoidant. It gets worse and worse. A friend of mine years ago told me I was the kind of person you got to know backwards. to begin with I seemed very open, and then the longer you knew me, the less you knew. Sad but true. I hope these days I am a little more available.
Knowlove, if you had a very traumatic early start it would make sense that it is particularly hard to get in touch with your inner child. Orphans and babies with attachment disorder often have very powerful defenses against the early pain. I know a few people in recovery who had early starts like yours and it usually takes a long time to get through the defenses. It may not be something you can get to on your own, and if it isn't coming up, I don't think that's a bad thing. Better to have strong defenses than to be overwhelmed I think. Feelings surface in their own good time and when we're strong enough to process them. Like Quinn said there is loads of info on attachment disorder. My mother has attachment disorder and that's why I am so avoidant. I was left alone a lot as a child. I found reading about children who didn't have mothers a big help, I identified so much even though my mother was physically present when I was growing up. P.
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Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 10, 2010 23:24:08 GMT -5
Wow. I am learning so much from posts on this thread.
Sexlessw -- Very insightful. My second ex-h is very close to his attorney as he should be since he is most likely his best client. No prenups but he does lie about his business profits to avoid paying exes. It is good to see my patterns but it will be even better when I break those patterns. I have more work to do and I really need my HP to help with that.
Knowlove -- I agree with others that being in the hospital for a month after birth and being sarated from your mom most likely led to attachment and abandonment issues. I'm beginning to believe that a lot of my LRA issues are rooted in infancy even though I can't recall them. Those memories and feelings are stored somewhere. I know they have surfaced during a kind of hypnosis and when I've been under the influence of alcohol.
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Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 10, 2010 23:43:32 GMT -5
Quinn -- I think you're in California like I am. And our last POAs are apparently twins. Brothers from a different mother. If this brand of avoidant doesn't act avoidant until a move in or marriage or things get too close for their comfort, how can we spot them in the beginning of a relationship? Prim, can you shed light on this? Your avoidant side gives you credentials. Thanks also for answering my question about step work.
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Post by primrose on Jul 11, 2010 6:08:04 GMT -5
Iwillsurvive, I think as people get healthier in recovery they have less interest in enmeshment and intensity. So when they meet an avoidant who starts off a relationship by blending with another person and dazzling them, that's a red flag. Needing to be dazzled and treated like a princess isn't really very healthy. So I think as a LRA matures he\she stops wanting to be the centre of another's world and stops looking for that person who is going to be everything to them. Intimacy isn't intensity. The longer a person works a programme the less interested they become in getting high off a partner. So when you get well it's not just a question of "spotting" an avoidant because you know the signs of avoidance, it's that you lose interest in the charm and the hook because you're more authentic yourself. You stop selling a perfect version of yourself to others when you meet them, so you stop needing it in a partner too. The more authentic you are, the less attractive you are to an addict anyway Avoidants dazzle the emotionally naive. They dazzle people who want to be duped (even if it's all unconscious). So you don't necessarily need a list of dos and donts in a partner that you can tick off, when you get healthier your instinct let's you know very fast when someone is healthy or not. Meetings really help with that. Meeting other addicts helps you really understand the difference between someone in active avoidance and someone who is healing. People who work a programme calm down in recovery and they become less frantic and manic, their energy lightens I think, it doesn't seem so heavy or intense and they become more present. As you heal, the intense high of an avoidant becomes less attractive. Actually it starts to look a bit desperate! P.
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Post by quinn on Jul 11, 2010 10:05:07 GMT -5
Iwillsurvive, yes I'm in CA too and no doubt our POAs are brothers I agree with Prim that when we get healthier we attract, and are attracted to, a different kind of person. When I met my POA I had a lot of still unconscious childhood issues that led me to need someone to adore me and treat me like a princess. (Still want to be adored, but not nearly enough to go out with another avoidant.) By the time I left him I had spent many many years in therapy and had changed so much that if he had met me as I am now, he never would have been attracted to me. I just don't need rescuing the way I did then and my lack of neediness wouldn't appeal to him. There are, however, in retrospect, lots of signs that would have told me he was avoidant regardlesss of how adoring he was being, if I had known what to look for. These are a few things I would consider warning signs in the beginning of a relationship. 1. He didn't want to take me to meet his family. Took him two YEARS of dating before I met them. 2. He needed a ridiculous amount of "space" and "private time." (This is a hard one to spot if you live far apart.) 3. He kept the compartments of his life very separate. Didn't ever want to talk about ex partners, family, or work. 4. When I finally did meet his family, I realized he had told them literally nothing about me. 5. When I began feeling committed to him, he almost instantly emotionally withdrew. 6. When I lost interest in him, he almost instantly became obsessed with me again. 7. He was extremely ambivalent and anxious when talk about moving in together came up. 8. He was also extremely ambivalent about getting married. (Stupid me. Shouldn't that at least have clued me in?)
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Post by knowlove on Jul 11, 2010 10:25:31 GMT -5
I find all of this information so interesting. Never once thought of my being left for a month in the hospital as a newborn ever affecting me but then again I've concentrated on mostly my mother's lack of attention and mothering for so long. I had built up resentment for years for her. I never had a discussion with her regarding her neglect but she has on many occasions said she knows she wasn't the best mother and my sister and I never tell her differently. We've never reassured her or said she was a fantastic mother. One time she made a comment about us having resentment and I told her I had but that I no longer did (this was last summer). She asked what I had resentment about and I told her it wasn't worth bringing up the past because i knew she would say it was her depression and i knew she would turn it around to be about her. She did say if I was resentful she was sorry for anything she had done. I am sure at her age now that she is. She wants to be close to us now that we are adults and wants the attention. Although I am sure she was depressed, she was also extremely selfish and put herself first. Even as an adult, she has made some very mean comments to me (your fat rolls are showing in your back, whose fat ass is that in the fridge, you and your sister were terrible as kids, etc.) I was angry at her for years for the things she did to us and the things she should have done but didn't (coming home after hitting my head on the ice and being knocked out. She told me to go lie down because she was so busy doing something else for someone. That is the worst thing you could say. If I had head trauma I could have died. My sister and I in 3rd grade had a party to go to. We had to bring a 1.00 grab gift. My mother was too lazy to take the time to get something decent so she wrapped up little tissue packs. The kids all made fun of us and made us take them. We were humiliated and my mom didn't care. She would drive home from work and go right by the gas station on her way home. She would come home, tell us to ride our bikes up to the gas station, on a very busy main road, to buy her cigarettes and she'd write a note so we could purchase them). These are just a few examples of many of my mother's parenting. I never spoke to her about any of this and decided to work my through it myself. Through all the years I sometimes despised her but she never knew. I was always respectful and kind to her. So it is interesting to see how some of you were able to speak or write how you felt to your parents and get it all out. Did you feel relief? Like a weight was lifted off your shoulders? I know I had high expectation of others and wanted them to be how I FELT they should and every time they did not do or act as I hoped I would be very hurt and angry. Learning I cannot expect others to be what I want. Have to let them be who they are.
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Post by iwillsurvive on Jul 11, 2010 11:31:38 GMT -5
Prim -- Thanks for your reponse to my question about spotting avoidants. It makes a lot of sense that becoming more present and authentic would lead to a different kind of relationship. An avoidant isn't going to want a real relationship with a real person. An avoidant wants fantasy and fun and none of that annoying stuff that comes along with a real person. For the record, I'm avoidant in some cases as well. Very important information and encouraging too.
Quinn -- I appreciate your insight as well. Sounds like you literally grew out of your need for an avoidant while dealing with your issues. Thanks for sharing the signs of avoidance by your stbx. I will say though that I have met avoidants who will introduce you to their families. If I was more aware at the time I would have noticed they came from a family of avoidants.
Knowlove -- I feel sad for you as a little girl when I read about how your mom treated you. Is she loving and more caring in the present? I did write my dad a letter telling him how his abuse affected me. I told him that I forgave him but I would like him to apologize for what he did. I also told him that I would not have contact with him if he continued to be verbally abusive toward me. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done but it was also empowering. I finally respected myself enough to ask for the apology and stop pretending everything was OK between us.
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Post by knowlove on Jul 11, 2010 14:34:35 GMT -5
Thanks IWS, she is more needy of me since I became a grown up. I have no doubt she loves me as she says it all the time but I definitely think it really still is about filling her needs to be wanted and loved. I cant even begin to describe her. She really is one of a kind. Last year, when their 50th anniversary was coming up, my dad said he didnt want a party or my sister and I to go to any trouble. my mom said "no dont say that. I want a party." She got her party and was in her glory getting all the attention. She says when she dies she wants everyone to fill the church weeping at her coffin and grave. Seriously. I've never met anyone so needy and desperate for attention. It has always been about HER. I look back at how sad and pathetic my sister and I were as kids, just waiting to be picked on (as we always were) because my mother always told us to turn the other cheek. I could tell story after story here but Im sure all of us could! That is why we are all her because of deep wounds we harbor since childhood. I really envy those who seem to be able to grasp what behavior caused them to be the way they are and how they can look at it, see clearly what needs to be changed and how and then work on that change (like Prim, Trout, G-Yay!!!). I see things but it seems to be scattered in bits and pieces. Putting it all down for step 4 helps but still have a long way to go. Fragments need to be put together like a puzzle. Life is tough eh?
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Post by primrose on Jul 11, 2010 15:20:58 GMT -5
Lots of great stuff here, Quinn, you've done SO much work on yourself, am so sad that your POA couldn't join you in that, what a lost opportunity for him in his life, to lose such a fabulous woman who was willing to change so much is just a tragedy.
Knowlove, in your step 4 it might help to write every single resentment about your mother. I know it might seem like a HUGE task, but working through those resentments brings a lot of clarity. Hopefully we'll have step work here soon that will help people see how to work through the columns with the resentments, to really shift all of the negative feelings. Writing down your part and how you were silent or people pleased or wanted others to be different from how they were, whatever it was, will help to really release you from the knot of fury from childhood. Not to blame you at all in any way when you were a child, it's VERY important not to blame yourself, your child needs compassion, but to look at how you learnt to keep quite or repress your feelings or whatever it was that those resentments created in you. I know how hard it is to get through step 4 on your own, as soon as we can we'll get step work to help with that, promise! P.
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